Storytelling and communication skills are the ultimate career advantage with Matt Eventoff

Matt Eventoff has coached CEOs, authors, celebrities and more as a Communications Trainer. Today he joins us to lend his expertise to your job search and let us in on the communication secrets that the top performers in the world leverage. Tune in to hear more about finding your voice and find tips on the traits you’ll need to future proof your careers for the upcoming decades.

Photo of Matt Eventoff

The owner of Princeton Public Speaking, which is a high stakes organization that helps global executives and business leaders become class communicators.

Maren Kate 0:00

Howdy folks, Maren Kate here. My guest today is Matt Evan tough and I'm super excited to chat with him. He is an expert communications trainer, who has worked one on one with famous founders, executives and professionals to help them find their voice and communicate authentically. And that was one of the reasons I was incredibly excited to get Matt on the show. And to also just just learn how, especially in this economy, as we're not only future proofing our career, but looking for new roles, how we can tap into that. So Matt, you know, just to get started what sure you know, in a few minutes, What's your story? How did you how did you get here?

Matt Eventoff 0:44

Thank you Maren, and that was that was some intro please. Intro you could be anywhere anytime. I'm not deserving of that. So I started I started. Like most people started I started as a kid in the suburbs who liked music Second was trying to find my own identity. And I listened to a lot of music and in and listening to that music at a young age, I picked up an Iron Maiden album. And the beginning of the song Aces High was Winston Churchill, giving one of his most famous addresses of all time and every, every, every, everything in my being, seem to exhibit goosebumps. As he spoke, I couldn't even fully process what he was saying I didn't even understand the complexities of what he was facing at that point in time, but boy, did I feel the power in his words, and what he was saying and that caused a lifelong fascination with Winston Churchill and with the power of spoken word.

How old were you at that point?

either 11 or 12.

Maren Kate 1:56

Wow. So then what did so so how did that look like career wise, what did you you know, what did you do after high school?

Matt Eventoff 2:04

What was it? You know, just like everybody, you know, I was trying to find my own identity and, and I had a path just like every preteen and teen that was that was challenging in its own way, just like everybody. And I found that I had tremendous power in my voice. And I found why. While there were many things outside of my control, and outside of what I could really do, I found that I could have a tremendous impact with my voice and my ability to use my voice, whether it was to advocate for myself to advocate for things that I believed in, in class in school. And so I just started really just just talking and practicing and really learning on my own, but at that point in time, my focus in my head, I wanted to be an elected official, I wanted to be a politician. I grew up wanting to be a politician. So I decided that I was going to utilize those tools to To become an elected official and obviously that didn't happen. But what did happen is as I went through school, I started working in politics and I found that my sweet spot in politics was helping elected officials find their voices and become more comfortable and and and become more comfortable speaking and become more comfortable finding their voice that then manifested as everyone's career does into a journey where I worked my way through politics, I set up my own small shop, doing exactly what I do now doing communication training for elected officials and candidates. I had an opportunity to work with a senior executive at a company and that was my first foray into corporate America. I loved it. And I really loved the the ability to effectuate change within an organization and to help help an executive who creates jobs and who was creating jobs and creating opportunities, find his voice and further develop it and then it just kind of rolled from there. I was very blessed and very fortunate. So there's so much there.

Maren Kate 4:10

So in terms of, especially now, especially speaking to people that maybe you know, maybe they're in their career, but thinking about a change, or maybe they're actively looking right now, how do you like and I know it's hard to say like, what's the short version? But how would you if you were just giving someone advice at a bar cafe? And they hadn't spent much time on personal positioning or or finding their voice? Like, how does one go about that, especially, especially when you're when you're looking for work?

Matt Eventoff 4:39

It's interesting, right? So So again, going back to Winston Churchill, one of one of my favorite quotes, about 1000 favorite well not that's an exaggeration. Countless favorite quotes from Winston Churchill, one of my favorites is the following and that is there is nothing like oratory, it is a skill that can turn a commenter into a king and I view myself very much a commoner You know, all throughout my whole life, and I certainly have been involved with the way. Sir Winston Churchill demonstrated in that quote in the way he did, but I think, I think, in this market and in this environment, one thing that people, we all tend to have a lot of thoughts all day long. And we've all seen the behavioral and the social science studies that show just the sheer magnitude of thoughts we have in our own heads, and the fact that many of them if not most of them, have a negative bent to them. And I think, I think one of the challenges in finding your own voice is getting past the fact that other people might not like that voice. What it sounds like and having to fit it into a box. I find that when I talk to someone, and they go through an app, like their job application or their resume, people tend to do it in a linear fashion and go through I did this and then I did this and then I did this, and then I did this. What I like to ask people always is okay, that's great. That's wonderful. Tell me your story. And by the way, taking no no no pride of ownership on that, too. I've learned that by virtue of having phenomenal mentors throughout my entire life. They all started out older than me. Now, some are older, some are my age and some are even younger and and I find I'm one thing that that two different individuals did for me when I was younger was asked me exactly that. So that's great. That's what you want to do. But what's your story? Tell me about? Like, what? Why are you you? How did it happen and finding those, that connective tissue within the resume or the application to make it more of a story? So one of the things I always do, because I really believe in messaging is you no matter from past conversations, one of the things I always do in messaging and I think it's so important is I always ask myself before I have a conversation, okay, Matt, before you talk to this person, you're about to talk to them about public speaking. And the person you're talking to is very busy and has a lot of things going on in life. Just like everybody, and they might forget most if not everything that you say so mad if they're going to forget everything, what's the one thing you need them to remember? And why should they care line? And I always ask myself that question before any phone call before any meeting before any presentation because I speak a lot publicly. And I say, Okay, these are very busy people, right? Whether it's a group of executives that I'm speaking to, or it's through through my nonprofit in the evening, speaking to kids, teaching them the same skills. You know, kids are probably as busy if not busier than, than adults at this point in terms of the sheer scheduling and number of things coming up at once. So you have a limited people have a limited amount that they can listen to, and you always have to remember as a communicator, the information when I'm communicating it is going to be in that moment, infinitely more important to me than it is to the person who's receiving it because I know it, I've been studying it, I've been preparing for it and I've been preparing to deliver it. So I can't expect that they're going to hear it with that. Same way that I'm delivering. And so I really want to make sure that I, there is no doubt when they go through it. What is the one thing I need them to remember? What do I need them to remember? And why should they care? Now why do they care? Because I just assumed that they don't. Not in a negative way at all. I just assume again, I'm, I'm combating what anybody else delivering a message is combating and that is the studies. I don't even think the studies can keep up with the sheer magnitude of messaging that is coming at individuals on a daily basis.

Maren Kate 8:32

And do you think of when you think of like, especially like in the job search process are hiring like, especially in a imagine a hiring manager or whoever you're talking to an interviewer, a founder, whoever it is, they're getting even more bombarded because they're having to process through all of these candidates, all these applicants now because we went from six months ago, you know, a low incredibly low unemployment economy. To one where, you know, we have in, I think 15 20% right now, so that it's like the It seems that that that like, what's the one thing this person needs to remember? And why should they care is even more important, especially when people are whether they're asking for a raise or trying to get a new position or applying for a whole new job. That seems so vital, because everyone is just almost had information fatigue coming in?

Matt Eventoff 9:32

Well, it's it's exhausting for me. We're all especially in this in this pandemic era that we're living to, you know, we have there's new information coming out about the pandemic on a daily basis, which is something that pre 2020 none of us have had been conditioned yet or used to on top of everything else. And then when you're talking about that hiring manager or or the the, the talent executive, or the person the executive Have herself or himself who's actually hiring a report. They're also they're processing everything that you're saying in an interview, while also going through, how am I going to get along with this individual? How will this individual work with my team? How will we work in this distributed fashion that and the list goes on. So I think it's really important. Again, the other thing, the other reason I like to ask those questions of myself and I use them as my frame Mehran. It's, it's as much for me as the presenter or in this case, as as if I were looking for for employment, and I was in an interview, I would be doing it as much for me as the interviewee as I would be doing it for the interview interviewer and the why for that is it helps focus my mind. So when you were asked the question, tell me about yourself or walk me through your resume. It's a pretty overwhelming question.

Maren Kate 10:55

Yeah, you could answer it 1000 ways

Matt Eventoff 10:58

and they could could go from five minutes to five days. Mm hmm. Right. So so so what I like to ask myself those questions because it centers my mind. I said, Okay, I want this person to know that I am super passionate about communication and the fact that communication levels playing fields, not my words, Winston Churchill's words and history is shown. Right. So so why would that matter to an individual? Because I would venture to guess, if not all, nearly all individuals want to present their best self on a regular basis. Why wouldn't you?

Maren Kate 11:40

Yeah. And especially when you're you know, when you're trying to get something

Matt Eventoff 11:47

I think the other thing the other reason I like asking that question and again, your your, this is your area of expertise, not mine, but as someone who's who's hired people before. I'm I really want to know about someone, not just their work experience, not just their educational achievements. Not just their accolades, not just their honors, I want to know about them. Because it's really hard to summarize, you know, one's entire entirety on a page or two pages, or three pages or four pages.

Maren Kate 12:25

So if you're, you're going for a job, you're in a, you're in an interview, especially, you know, right now, taking that framework, I would say it's like the one thing you want, the hiring manager to remember is probably something tied into the skills you have that will solve their particular problem. And then

Matt Eventoff 12:50

I'm sorry, please. Oh, no, go ahead. No, I think it's, it could be skills, it could be a certain value that you Okay,

Maren Kate 13:00

Like if your value is really aligned with the company

Matt Eventoff 13:03

correct or characteristic about you that makes you unique.

Maren Kate 13:06

And then the why should they care is probably tied into some way that that because of that value because of that skill, because of that experience, you can solve their pain point that they're looking to solve in this role.

Matt Eventoff 13:21

Correct. You can help them you can help them solve it. I mean, I always say just for myself as a communication trainer, right as if I'm training you, it doesn't. I'll give it to you a different way. I often prepare speakers before major speeches, and something that most people don't don't are surprised by when I tell them is I often then don't watch the speech live. I'll often I'll be in the same location, but I won't stop there. Oftentimes, I won't watch it live. I'll actually sit outside of whether it's a conference area or or It's an auditorium, I'll sit on the outside. Because before I actually watch the speech and provide my own critique, I want to ask people who are coming out at an intermission or a break. What did you like? What did you think? What did you learn? What worked? Because I'm not the audience. I'm the trainer. Huh? I'm not the audience. You're I'm not the one that that person is presenting to. So I want to see because that that really shows that the messaging stuck.

Maren Kate 14:36

If someone was able to carry it forward, yeah, absolutely. Because that person is going to, you know, it's not in their head there. But if they if they took the messaging if they understood what the one takeaway, I'm thinking in terms of, you know, job seekers, it almost seems like it would be incredibly valuable for them to, you know, for someone to figure out what what they that one thing But they want to communicate. Let's say they're going for digital marketing role. And then the why someone should care that's going to change job by job. But it almost seems like if you could, if you could talk to strangers and kind of position yourself as a professional and then ask them, you know, get their honest feedback, like, what what do you think you heard, that would be incredibly valuable, because they're going to be the ones that because they're not in your head.

Matt Eventoff 15:30

I mean, I think feedback is invaluable for exactly every reason you just said and I think but I also think feedback is something that you have to be careful with because I've, I've worked with a number of folks in the past who have received feedback that was very, very general, and I wouldn't I would posit it as inaccurate and negative. And, and the person who received it really took it to heart and made substantive changes, guys And and I think I think something that you said earlier really, really resonated with me. And I think it's so important, especially when you're talking about job seekers, and especially in a market like this where there are so many unbelievably talented people who who are amazing at what they do out there, I think. I think being able to solve someone's pain point or problem is so critical, and I think too much messaging. And when people are worried about communication, it's too much Ay, ay, ay. resume. I love the idea of researching the company that you're going to work with the role. What what folks have done in that role previously? Where that organization's strengths are and how you can benefit them. Yep. Because I think it's so important to always This is how this is how I can I can provide benefit to the organization. This is how I can make the organization stronger.

Maren Kate 17:15

Yeah, and what people tend to do is we do the opposite we exactly we lead with AI, we, you know, I always see this when people are applying for remote roles. Someone will say, why do you want this role and they're like, Oh, I want to work remote. You're like, that's not for as a hiring manager as the company. I'm like, I don't care if you want to work remote, I, you know, I've got this, these, these goals and these problems to solve, like, you know, that's the how of the work, but I want to know why you want to do this job at this company. So yeah, just just approaching it from how you can benefit. The company or the position is so much more impactful, and it's kind of amazing how few people do it. It's so interesting. One of the one of the questions I have here is just like something I've been thinking about a lot is, is how people can future proof their career, like the next 10 or 20, or even 30 years, just depending on you know, how old you are, how long you're going to work, we're going to see we've already seen a ton of change in the last 20 years, but we're going to see even more rapid change with technology with automation. And it seems like of all the conversation I've had, especially this one, one of the end with remote work like remote work communication is one of the key tenets, a lot of it's written, but some of its verbal, but if you're not a strong communicator, no matter what you're good at, it makes it very hard to work remotely because you're constantly like the written word has come back in, in remote work in all of our instant messaging. So in terms outside of communication and becoming a strong communicator or writer, what are the skill sets or traits you think that people will need to future proof their careers In the next two or three decades?

Matt Eventoff 19:02

Well, I think, and I think you know that I do it with the quotes around them because I don't believe the use of the word is appropriate. I mean, I think it's communication along with other and again, quote unquote, soft skills. But I don't think those skills are our soft I think, again, as you said, People like to work with people. Mm hmm. We call them teams, right? We work with teams, whether they're remote teams or in person, people like to work with people and I think being able to understand people having empathy for people, I think communication is is again and it's what I teach. So I'm obviously I obviously, feel very strongly about it. But I think another skill and one that I work on every day and I've certainly not mastered I hope to before I pass it but it's hard But I get better at it every day is active listening. I think being able to be an active listener. I mean someone to meet some of the most influential people I've worked with and and met are people who forget what they say, their ability to listen and really listen to what you're saying, not just the words that are coming out of your mouth. But what you're really saying. Yeah, and how they can help me I think people who are present in the moment, you've all we've all heard about different leaders, whether it's a founder, whether it's a former president, whether who were there addressing you, it felt like I was the only person in the room. Right. And that and I think there's a reason people repeat that constantly about about other people, because people you encounter that do that aren't aren't frequent. It's not constant, and it's really impactful when it happens. I think in interviews, I think I think one of the interesting things is I love I love watching it and I've heard from it interviewing people who have gone on interviews who have asked to me really interesting questions questions like, when you're my age, whether I you know, whether whether I'm a fit for this position or not, when you were my age, if you were interviewing for this position, whether I get it or not, what advice would you give me? Huh? My 25 year old self or you're 35 years old. So see, to me that's feedback. that's invaluable because I look at you know, the one thing about being older, as you get older is you've made a lot more mistakes, right? Every year you get older, I always like to say, it's not another hundred mistakes, I've made thousand mistakes. I've made 2000 mistakes, whatever mistakes I've made, and those were all learning experiences. So being able to take advantage of those within interviews, I think is important because I think, you know, you can, learning from what other people did, not just the successes, but the things that didn't work. To me, the things that didn't work are often more valuable, but I think to future proof your career, it's working on those empathetic traits. How do you connect with people How do you how do you utilize? How do you think creatively? How do you think outside of the box? How do you maximize your skills? I'll give you an example. Mehran we're right now we're on zoom right on zoom. We most of us communicate with the world through five senses. Obviously, some people, some people might be challenged on one sense, and then we often find that they have heightened experiences with other senses, but most of them right with its sight or sound, touch, taste, smell.

Maren Kate 22:35

Bear, yep, for sure.

Matt Eventoff 22:37

On zoom, so on zoom, we're now focusing, if we're talking about whether it's zoom, I don't want to pick on zoom because it could be with zoom, FaceTime, WebEx, whoever you want to pick, you're staring at a camera on the screen. So I would argue that that site is different because context is different when you're working when you're working around other individuals or when you're working in in different environments. The context changes the context on zoom calls, especially if one is a remote worker and you're working from your office all day, the context doesn't tend to change. sound is coming at you the same way again the same way right now I'm using, you know, air pods which are terrific. Shout out to an AI terrific, terrific shout out right there terrific. But it, I can almost hear too well with them. And what I mean by that is, all of the extraneous sounds that are occurring, whether it's my puppy purring underneath me, it's the fire in the fireplace crackling, I can't hear. I can just hear you, which is amazing. It gives me an amazing focus, but again, I lose some of that context. I can't smell, I can't taste. You can't taste zoom, you can't smell zoom and you can't really feel a zoom call. Being able to be descriptive when you talk about things utilizing those other senses, being able to understand those other senses being able to heighten those other senses so that you can be more understanding of Other people and and what they're experiencing, I think that not only makes us innately human, but it is. I don't know about future proofing. But I think I think people like to work with people they like. Yeah, absolutely not. I don't say that it's a popularity contests. I mean, it's people that they like, right. Do you like being Yeah, yeah, right. I know you. Well, Mary, you know me? Well, we have, we have many, many different friends that would fit in many, many different social circles, which is terrific. That's what makes life vibrant and beautiful, and why we're both very lucky and blessed. But being able to relate to different people and their experiences, I think are so important. And I think, you know, this year is we've, it's been such an intense year so far, on so many levels for so many reasons. I think being able to understand other people and being able to relate, maybe not to the exact situation that they're living through, but to relate to what they're feeling. emotionally and understand it and have empathy for it to me. I think that that that is something that will be I don't it's not going away. I'm only going to be more needed. And I don't know that it's replicable.

Maren Kate 25:16

True. But I do think honestly, I think that actually is probably one of the main things, if you're not going to get, you know, replaced in the new economy, if you're not going to is I mean, I think there's kind of two things, I think it's the soft skills that you're talking about. And then it's the and they go hand in hand, the ability to always be curious and always be a constant learner. It's like, if you can nail those two, then you'll always, even if, you know, there's insane technologies that come along, even if the world changes even more than it's changed in the last 12 months, you're going to be able to adapt but if you don't have those things, Especially as as the world goes more online as there's more robotics and automation, that's going to be the one thing that really

Matt Eventoff 26:09

defines us,

Maren Kate 26:10

you know, from the robots, so to speak, and I think people are going to crave it more is is that empathy is that soft skill? Is that just yeah, that that being present that active listening, the more we interact with technology and don't have that, the more we're going to even it's going to be even more important.

Matt Eventoff 26:29

I mean, I think the pandemic to me, to me has has really laid it out on the table. Very, very cool, clearly, I mean, among the devastation and the heartache and all of the awfulness that has come with COVID what you really see people yearning for what is that human connection, keep that human connection whether you work remote remotely, you work in an office, but if you work remotely, you don't work on an island where it's just you. It's that being able it's that connection. It's that big able to, to, to be empathetic with someone and be physically present with someone or maybe not physically present but have that option to be physically present. And to be able to relate to them and to be connected to them. And that's why you see so many people. I mean, what you know, I can tell you that in my own experience, over the last few months, I've been able to reconnect with people I haven't spoken to, in, in a long time and all them, but it's because people are craving connection. And I think that's that's not something that's going away and again, going if, if I'm right, and I don't know that I am, but if I'm right and people like to work with people that they like and enjoy and enjoy being around and can learn from I think those skills if you if you if there is a way to future proof yourself, that would be the way to do it. Until interesting, I think and I love what you said about lifelong learning. I know that's one thing I committed to earlier in the year was to, to really try to heighten all of my senses by by pushing myself to the edge of my comfort. So when learning new skills, and learning how to cook and these are things that probably sound basic learning how to draw, and just learning how to tap other areas of my creativity, because I think it makes it makes me better at what I do. But I also think it makes me a better person and better able to relate to everybody around me.

Maren Kate 28:22

Yeah, I mean, the more experiences you have, the more external things that you can learn or look at or whatever the more points of view, the more empathy you'll have, and the more you'll understand other people. Mmm, that's great. I love

Matt Eventoff 28:36

relating back and relating back to, you know, your original question marks I know I took it away. So if ultimately, you know you you're trying to show a future employer that you can be part of the solution that that employer is trying to either a problem that employer has or or a project that employers working on being able to understand different people's points of view where they're coming from being able to actively listen, being able to do research to figure out where an organization is, all of those things put you in, in a position to me where you're putting your best foot forward. And then it isn't just a credential contest.

Maren Kate 29:23

Exactly, exactly. Yes, it's two people could have the same credentials or background or you know, experience but if you if you have all those soft skills, and you can bring those to the table, and you can really listen and engage, you're going to stand out so much more, even more than someone who doesn't have that, but maybe has more credentials, so to speak than you. So Matt, what, you know, obviously, this is this is a, there's so much that could be dug into this and it's a short conversation, what resources or books or like if people wanted to learn more about how to start to developing this suite of soft skills, where would you point them?

Matt Eventoff 30:04

It's funny, and it's a great question. So I, one thing I do is I watch speakers all the time, whether it's TED Talks I like I personally like watching speakers from history. So I will I listened to Churchill quite a bit. I listened to tapes of Dr. King, I find, you know, in in our young 21st century, you know, Malala yousufzai is just a phenomenal captivating speaker who I listened to. I use one of my favorite books about public speaking, which is interesting, because I don't think the term public speaking is even mentioned in it once is on writing by Stephen King. I find Stephen King the way Stephen King is my word, right? Yeah, the way Stephen King is able to put a narrative together carry narratives forward through books that were whoa write a book and then connect it to a book. He writes five books later, the way he thinks About people and their situations and the situations is crafting them. I find that I think, you know, it was one it was, and I don't want to get it wrong. Dan pink, wrote a. He's written many books. I'm trying to think about I can picture the first book he wrote. And I, there was an anecdote in there where he said, You know, one way to really think differently about situations is just go to the newsstand and go through magazines and periodicals of things you're not interested in, which is something that I tend to do frequently after that I found the book riveting on so many on so many levels. Ah, when I first read it, but that was something that has really stuck with me, you know, I long well over a decade passes. I really like to read outside of areas of my own experience and expertise.

Maren Kate 31:51

Yeah, that's a great one. I love

Matt Eventoff 31:53

I tend to, I tend to read about, you know, I just I just finished reading about Toy Trains. I've never I've never owned a toy train. But I found some periodicals that were fascinating at my new Stan, which is still open. And I said this is very, very interesting. And it really, it, I see the way it changed. It changed the way I looked at some things because I had a new Knowledge Center and I had new way of looking at things. So I tend to do that. I like to watch programs, it's very, very easy for me to go just like everybody else and just go on to programs that I enjoy. Because I'm familiar with them. But I like to look for things that are unfamiliar. I tend to try to watch I it's, you know, I dedicate about an hour a week, I just search on YouTube for speakers that I probably would never encounter no one who's famous, no one who's a world leader, but I just like watching speeches and lectures that different professors have given or someone gave at a local club or a local organization to watch how they communicate and say, Oh, if I was advising this person, what do I see? And what can I learn from them from the way they present. I just Look for experiences outside of my own.

Maren Kate 33:04

I think the modern, like a version of of the newsstand, or even if maybe your new standards and open or you're in a suburb is podcasts, there are many podcasts. And they're so varied. And I mean, we're recording one right now. But at this point, anyone can make a podcast so you can get really, really neat. Like, I'm sure there are multiple podcasts on toy trains. So if you if you are interested in something or even if you just want something random to learn about, there's a bunch of fascinating podcasts that are on a variety of topics. And I think that you could almost do like podcast roulette and pick something and spend 30 minutes and just learn something so outside of your comfort zone. I'm I think I'm going to do that this afternoon when I take my my daily walk.

Matt Eventoff 33:54

That's awesome, man. I mean another example right, so I have my little 13 and a half year old puppy, I'm staring at Right now she's looking back at me. But there was, I bring it up because you brought up podcasts. About about six months ago, I was sitting with her and I said, Okay, I've read all these books about the neuroscience of how I think you think, and how humans think you think. I want to see how this compares to historically how, you know how other creatures communicate, and it got me going into a different direction and watching different things. And, and, and I'm watching, you know, my puppy shoe or my dog's gestures, and seeing how I would relate that to to, to other animals I've seen and it's and it just, you know, it's exactly what you just said, Marian, because I think learning begets learning. And I think fascination and curiosity begets curiosity and I find that the more I go down that hole of being curious about something, the more open something unravels or unearth other doors that I haven't thought of before, all of which made me better at what I did at what I do at my day job. Job, because again, it gives me different perspective.

Maren Kate 35:04

Yeah, it just goes back to that constant learning or just even even even even simpler. I like to think then constant learning because that almost sounds a little bit overwhelming. It's just being curious. You know, just like, like, Why do orchids look like that? And then you just like look into it or I think that's one thing. In so many so many of us being kind of on on lockdown for the last few months, I've noticed I've gotten a lot more curious. And I've learned a lot more and I've gotten curious about things that I wouldn't have even noticed, you know, in the past and my busy life running around New York for meetings to meetings. I've just had hours and hours where I'm, you know, have the freedom to stare at a bug or think about things. Matt, this has been so amazing. Thank you so much for coming on and just chatting. I'd love to know like what's the best way for people to find out more about you about what you do.

Matt Eventoff 35:59

You can Please go either to my website at Princeton public speaking calm or to my nonprofit the oratory project calm it's just oratory excuse me where Ettore and I'm pretty easy just send an email and and and I just really, really want to thank you for this opportunity Maren, this has been a lot of fun. I love doing this. I think you're right. I think the one thing the other beauty is as you said, I want to give you yet another shout out. I love the free flow of a podcast. Because I think you also learn a lot about communication, listening to two people communicate who aren't in the same so people who might not be were were remote work is is somewhat new, or is something that they don't have a lot of experience with. I think listening to podcasts, you can learn a lot. I didn't even think about this until we were talking about just watching people communicate via podcasts because that is ultimately it's really Very rarely are people in and it's

Maren Kate 37:02

just it's just audio. I mean, sometimes it's video too, but it's a totally different skill set.

Matt Eventoff 37:11

Maren Kate 37:13

Awesome, man. Thank you so much.

Matt Eventoff 37:16

Terrific. Thank you Maren.

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