Where is the line between sharing your authentic life’s story and pitching your professional self when looking for a new role? Are you positioning your narrative to solve their problem, or just data dumping? Matt Klein, founder of PRSNL Branding, has spent years thinking about how job seekers can stand out and today he shares tips for creating your own personal brand and talks about the importance of actively job hunting.
Hello, hello. Today's guest is Matt Klein. He is the founder of personal branding spelled PR s nl I recently bought and downloaded his course, and was reading through it and just decided that I had to get him on the podcast. And then also, I wanted to pick your brain for the going remote book. Matt, you are a person that has thought a lot about personal branding and how it applies to one's career. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. So in just a few minutes, I'd love to hear your story like, you know, starting kind of from the beginning. How did you how did you get to where you are now?
Oh, sure. Yeah, like any entrepreneurial journey, it was really an experience with a personal problem that I was trying to work through. I was a undergrad in college trying to get my foot in the door in the advertising marketing field, and was not finding much luck. Unfortunately, I was experiencing kind of closed doors because of the fact I didn't have an explicit degree in Africa. As your marketing, and everything kind of changed when I came across a quote by David Ogilvy the father Yeah, I say and they quote was, what hopes Do you have of advertising anything if you can't advertise yourself, and it was like this mind blowing moment, which was like, I had no business landing a job in advertising if I couldn't demonstrate my capabilities or thinking to stand out. So really, the next day I double down on that brand of Matt Klein and tactically what I did was really just run the gamut, which was I made sure my resume didn't look like anyone else's. I created a robust LinkedIn profile. I became active on Twitter, I kind of nudged myself into online conversations, taught myself how to develop a personal website, I've reached out and introduced myself to hiring managers. I like edited some of my school papers. So they were like fitting to the industry and I published them on medium I ditched my Gmail and.edu email addresses, and I came up with my own custom domain, nice client client client, right? So I did all these things and Based on that quote, exactly right. Yes. And just just go ahead. Oh, sorry, just to back up a little bit before that cuz I love getting this extra color in like, when you went to school, what did you go to school for? And what was what made you even think I want to get into marketing and advertising. So I was going to be 5050 it was a degree in child psychology to become an artist or a film director. It was one or the other. And like, they're completely random ideas. And it wasn't until I had the opportunity to take these marketing classes that I realized that's what my really got and was. And it was the overlap between the psychology and Media Studies. It was the ways in which certain technologies are emerging media formats have the ability to persuade or dissuade our thoughts and behaviors. So really the overlap of those two distinct really fields if you will, so I was always interested in marketing upon graduation. But I had an advertised or rather I had a psychology and Media Studies degree, which made sense in my mind of why I was a fit for advertising. But because it didn't say BA in marketing, I was kind of shunned. So I mean, fast forward after I kind of told my story online, if you will, over the span of a month, I was juggling internship offers from one of the top agencies or some of the top agencies in the country. And I knew something was up here, right, because my qualifications never changed. I was still the same green college grad, the only thing that changed was the ways in which I was packaging and just framing myself. And after helping some family and friends do the same thing. Or they realized, I mean, there's something here there's, there's a business and while there were existing resume writers, and while there are services on college campuses, and people can help you develop your own personal website, no one was really creating the ecosystem of all these kind of random services together. help develop a more strategic creative and professional presence for emerging professionals. And fast forward here we are today, having worked with over 100 professionals from around the world, across industries up and down sonorities. We're talking Singapore to San Francisco, PhD economists, CEOs and authors, two high school students trying to land their very first internships as well. And we're still growing.
And that's so so first of all, when did you found PRSNL branding?
PRSNL was founded in 2016, officially as an entity.
Okay, so you've been doing it for four or five, six years?
Yes. Okay. And then before that, were you you know, you said you got some offers for internships. Did you take them? Did you, you know, do do kind of the corporate path for a while before you shifted to founder? How'd that look for you? I did. So, right out of school, I took an internship. At a top digital marketing agency, I was there for about three, four months. It's kind of like a contract. Like we don't know whether or not we're going to invite you on full time. I had a backup plan for another market research firm that was gonna hop to if I didn't get the offer, I ended up being incredibly fortunate to receive one of those full time offers at the end of the contract, decided to leave despite that. And then while I was working full time, I was also playing with this idea of PRSNL branding and being super hungry and wanting to be passed the ball at these very small, or in those small roles. I was kind of frustrated. I said, Okay, why don't I stay on board with these full time opportunities, and then build PRSNL branding on the side. And I still continue to do that. So I've kind of jumped a number of places and I'm currently working at a consultancy in the city. And outside of that, when I do find the time I continue to grow PRSNL.
Okay, I love it. Yeah, it's it's nice too, because I think I think that's so interesting to think about how the how the future of work is, is changing and, you know, for for millennials on even the generations that are that are younger than us. I truly seems like it's not just going to be it's not that traditional. I work at this company for x years, and then I work at like, I always have a big so literally while we're talking, I'm looking at your LinkedIn, I have a big beef with the way LinkedIn puts things because with the experience, it's a it's chronological, like you're a writer at Forbes, you know, there's, there's your full time job, there's what you founded, but those are all running in tandem, they're not these, you know, then I go there, then I go here, and, and that's just the way the world is moving to. And I think that's really important when it comes into positioning and branding, because so one thing I noticed and I I've interviewed thousands of people in the last 10 years. Um, and I noticed when I interview people, the younger they are a lot of times, I tell ask them to tell me their story and tell me what they do. And they start off with like, 10 things, well, I can do this, I can do that I've done this. I've done that. And just immediately, like, you know, my brain turns off, because I don't know how to process that information. So how did you advise people when you're working on the PRSNL branding? How do you advise them to, like, how can they tell their holistic narrative without just data dumping and overwhelming the person they're talking to?
Yeah, so that's the million dollar question. And I'm going to answer that and also kind of describe the way in which we kind of consult with clients and this is really a blunt way of putting it so I kind of want to add some salt to that, which is, I think there's a misconception that we work for companies and that the company kind of owns us. As a person, and what I imagine and what I'm already seeing, that's so true, this shift where we're no longer working for a company, we're working for ourselves. And we just happened to be applying ourselves or X number of hours for that company throughout the day. And I think when we begin to tell our stories, it's rather than saying I'm anchored in XYZ LLC, and in more so positioning and as, here's what I do myself, and I think, right, there's a balance between that data dump and strategically kind of telling that story. But it's a shift in thinking of rather than me being anchored to just one company, it's me working for myself, and this is how I'm deciding to spend my time.
I love that and something I've said for a while and I've thought for a while, is the idea of in the future. Individuals won't work for a company, so I wouldn't be like, oh, what do you do? Oh, I work for Uber. Instead they work with so it'd be like, oh, what do you do? Oh, I work for Uber and operations. But I'm also you know, writing a book, and I'm building up my own company, which is exactly what you're talking about.
Exactly right. 100% I love that just a few years, the contingent worker economy will tip majority. So in other words, within just a few years, 51% of all workers will be freelance or contract workers, rather than be tied to just single employer rented. There's some caveat. There's a nuance based upon the recent unemployment around now. Yeah, exactly. We'll call it the Rona. But that said, the direction in which we're heading and I think even if anything, this is just an accelerant that we're not working for a company. We're working for ourselves or working with a company for just a small period of time.
Yep, exactly. So okay, so just like, let's imagine we're talking to someone who they're either underemployed, maybe they're at a company that they want to make this shift specifically, like what we're really focusing on is remote work, which I think is is one of the big features of work, you know, not the only one, but it's definitely part of it. I'm sure you're working remotely like everyone is right now. Um, so if someone has, you know, done a few jobs, but they, they're, they're thinking of how do they get there next thing, and they want to actually apply PRSNL branding? How would you suggest they do that? Yeah.
So my biggest, biggest, biggest piece of advice no matter who it is, no matter what industry, and this seems a bit obvious, but it's another kind of frame of thinking, it's the best time to look for work is when you already have work. And the purpose of PRSNL branding is to establish or enhance that reputation, that when it is time to find new work, your connections are already warm, your writing is already out there. You already have a pulse on openings, right? You're already kind of live and active. And you don't have that requirement to submit that formal application because you're Come to already fluid in and warm in that space. And when we think about product branding, Nike doesn't start to try to sell you shoes. When you're looking at the wall of options and you have a hole in your current pair of sneakers, right? They're constantly putting themselves out there. And I think we have to do the same thing as people. Granted, there's a difference between product branding and personal branding. And that's a giant misconception which we can get into as well. But I think when we think about looking for new work, especially remote work, it's just always being out there and always being active as opposed to, okay, well, my contract is ending next week, now I should start looking for something new. And if anything that does more harm than good, because there's a sense of, or a tinge of desperation in certain cases, when you start going active and, and are trying to find all these warm leads in a moment's time and, and recruiters or leads can smell that opposed to when you're already employed, and you're just reaching out checking in hoping all as well happy holiday, so on and so forth. And that has a significant and advantage for those who are always playing the on game, if you will.
So I guess the follow up to that is you, let's say you find yourself unemployed, let's say you work to doober for four or five years, and then they just did 3000 people worth of layoffs. If you're in that, if you were in that position, or if you're guiding someone who's in that position, how would you like? What would be the steps you would tell them to do?
Yeah, so a few things. One, I would ensure all personal materials are kind of locked, loaded, ready to go. That's the resume. That's sort of what you guys help with. Right?
That is correct. So I guess I'll explain the the things in which we would consult on as, as I explained this list, but ensuring that an individual's personal materials already ready ready to go right. So that's the resume the cover letter, the LinkedIn profile, a personal website, some writing that's already out there, perhaps a social media strategy in place of All right, I'm gonna XYZ posts lined up for the next weeks or so. So that's one part of it. I'm sure that's ready to go. The other part of it is kind of a go to market strategy again, much like we think of a brand strategy or product strategy, but to ensure that okay, what is my, my CRM list of the people that I'm reaching out to their email addresses? The location that I'm about to weather that no one does that? No one? And no, I'm reaching them out to on LinkedIn or I've submitted a formal application and just keeping track of that and Okay, it's been three days I haven't heard back, who else can I follow up to? And just have that also on the back burner? With your materials as well and you're just going to market if you will.
Absolutely. That's so important. Okay, question just even backing up further than that. What percentage of people whether they're employed, unemployed, but they're looking for their next thing? How many people do you think actually really have a clear pulse on on what they're really good at? At where they can truly provide value.
I think there's there's two data points there. The first is the percentage of people who think they think they know. And then the people who actually know. And I think there's a significant delta between those two numbers. I mean, we'll stick to digital marketing. I mean, there's people who write Oh, I'm a digital marketer. plain simple. Okay, you and 100,000 other people playing applying for the same job. But there's so many facets and nuances within just that role title itself, that no one is really putting forward. And that's kind of what we're getting at here with PRSNL branding. It's finding distinctions and characteristics and uniqueness to set yourself apart from the other competition.
Hmm, okay. Yeah, I mean, because literally, like I've been working since I was a teenager, but I've been I think I've been more or less working for myself. There's several businesses for the last almost 15 years and As I've been writing this book, literally thinking through, building out a section on people helping discover what they're truly good at, building out the section on like, how do you position like your, your core strengths and things like that. I've even realized that what I thought I was really good at and what I'm actually really good at are different things. And that was, it wasn't even not surprising to me because I feel like I was Yeah, that's just like, I'm always surprised by how much I don't know. But it amazes me that I think especially somebody that I've interviewed so many people and done hiring for so long. It always is surprising when someone says, Yeah, this is exactly what I do. And you're like, Okay, and then you dig in and you're like, I don't think you even fully realize or maybe haven't niched down enough.
Yet what I'll add to that, too, I think there's, there's another side of that, which is beyond just strengths and capabilities or skills. But there's another side of, well, what are you most interested in? And I think totally allowing people to find First explored that question before they get to their strengths is a great gateway.
Okey dokey. All right. Um, okay, so so like, the step by step process you said first you get your your materials together. And I guess even before that if you're fuzzy on on your personal branding, you need to figure out what you're interested in what you're good at what you're not good at. And then kind of like, a high level like, Where do you want to go in your career so you can know what you're going towards? Right?
Yes, the pre production before the production, pre production.
Okay. And then one thing I saw that you did and I love and and exactly like the idea of a CRM, but for managing your job search is creating a personal site. It's so easy now. I mean, you can do it for pretty much free outside of like $8. You pay for the domain. How do you suggest people go about that?
Yeah. So it's an absolute no brainer. In my mind, that's something that I try to recommend to everyone. There's a few ways of going about that. First, it's determining what you are trying to put on that website in the first place? I mean, what story? Are you trying to put? Is it existing work? Is it writing? Is it your biography? Is it a better way of telling your story that's more personable? I mean, 7% of professionals have a personal website. So just the idea of even one, yeah, no, gosh, no one. I mean, even LinkedIn, which is by no means a personal website, I mean, I think less than I don't want to make up the number. I want to think about it for half a second. But I would say less than 40% or so have a complete robust LinkedIn profile, meaning like fully completed all star, which is what LinkedIn calls it. We have everything completed from your banner. To your bio to text in your experiences, so on and so forth. So, yeah, there's a significant opportunity in in both cases on the website and LinkedIn, but for the website gets the first step there is determining, well, why are you creating that in the first place? What's the main intention? And granted, it could be all those things it could be showing material or telling a more interesting story or bringing yourself to life. The reason I think it's important before I explain them, I think it's important to understand why we're doing a personal website, before we even create it in the first place. I mean, firstly, there's search engine optimization, opportunity opportunities. So for those who are not necessarily familiar with that, it's when you're searching a name within Google, your results are rising to the surface beyond other people who have the same name. So for a hiring manager who's interested in getting to know a Mac client, my material is rising to the surface so there have to dig. The other reason, quite obviously is in comparable credibility. I worked with someone who was interested in speaking engagements. And they were not having much luck. The second they had a website called Joe Schmo professional speaker, then the opportunity started coming in or so it's a hug to link all of your work and contact information. It's a place to share more personality. And again, it's another opportunity to differentiate yourself considering the fact that only 7% of people have it.
Yeah, I mean, it's a huge thing and you think about in this day and age that's Yeah, that's amazing. that statistic blows me away. I'm so okay what uh, in terms of the site and honestly and I'll link this in the show notes people should check out your your personal site. I think it's a great one. It's climb, climb, climb, calm Klein spelled k l e I n. I'm dyslexic, so I kept spelling wrong and coming up with different people. But Oh, and by the way, that's the thing that if you have a name that's easy to misspell by a few domains like get, you know, I should do this myself. I've got Marin cake calm, I should spell mer and the ways people misspell it all the time. It's an additional $8 a year. And I'm always blown away by how little people invest in their career, complete side note, but like we spend, you know, I used to work for calm the meditation app. I think that's 80 bucks a year now, and people love it. And it's, you know, really helps them be better people. You know, that's, that's $80 incredibly well spent. But we spend, it seems like we spend much less on the careers and the work that makes us the money to spend on all these other things. And I'm not sure why that is.
I mean, have you seen that it's mind blowing. I mean, that's another mind blowing observation that I attempt to wrap my head around, which is even you think about hiring someone to help you write your cover letter, your resume or to have someone go over the grammatical errors or spelling check, whatever it may be. Yeah. $50 I mean, even if it's not expensive when you think about the potential upside of the salary that you're about to land as well as what that company means on your resume and how that unlocks new doors going forward, I mean $50 is, is miniscule, it's nothing. Yeah, I don't want to over blow. I mean, granted, not everyone necessarily has those resources but at the same time in the scheme of life, I mean, we're dealing with the smallest amount of money for the biggest upside.
Yeah, exactly. And that that is the thing it's like you know, um, there's you know, outside of like food and shelter getting getting work that you know, you can pay for that food and shelter you can take care of your family. And then from there, you know, going like kind of Maslow's Hierarchy getting meaningful work, which you know, is also just a game changer. So, in terms of this, this may not be relevant to each person. One thing I don't like is when we paint individuals with a broad brush, because, you know, human beings are incredibly diverse and divergent, so But what do you think are the most important social or professional networks for jobseekers to use in today's market? So the fact that we have, you know, record shattering unemployment globally because of this pandemic, and also the fact that we're more technologically advanced than we ever have before, like, what do you think? If you're talking to someone, and they're out of work for the first time in years, and they're or they're looking for a shift? What are the things that they should be prioritizing to to future proof their career in the next let's say, you know, several years?
For sure. So I would say first and foremost, LinkedIn, I think for some people that may be obvious, like a big thing for a lot of people. It's a what, what's LinkedIn, especially for those who've been employed for quite some time and never had to necessarily worry about social networking for employment. So I'd say that's number 101. From there, I think a big missed opportunity is personal writing. I recommend to a lot of clients medium, or another writing platform, we're able to just kind of put your thoughts out there. And the reason I like personal writing is because there's zero barriers to entry. And everyone has something to say, and good ideas and writing spreads and more. So it compounds over time. So once you publish, publish, excuse me publish something so excited, it's going to collect views, and it's going to continue to work for you even after it's kind of already out there. So it's gonna be working while you're sleeping. And writing could be a without 1000 word thought piece, or just a quick kind of daily thing. And more so that can be tailored per industry, so really doesn't matter there. And then the other one, I think, is a bit overlooked, which is Cora, which is really just a question based website. So people are asking their questions, and you have an opportunity to provide a thought out answer. This kind of blurs the line between writing and social networking, but what's in Here is for SEO opportunities. So if someone else is asking the same question, the Cora result is going to rise to the surface. And when we look at who answered that it's going to be your name, your photo, and your title. And that also too, grows over time. So as more and more people ask the question or or are reading up on certain topics within your industry, you have the opportunity to be the face, if you will, of those questions. And I think from there, perhaps Twitter, I would only recommend that for those who are kind of in more, I don't know. I don't say emerging but more digitally savvy. Industries in which hotcakes or keeping up with the trends and headlines are increasingly important. And the recommendation there is just to be a bit careful, as I think people seem to be a bit hot headed or sensitive.
Sensitivity. Yeah, yes, that is completely true. through it. So it's really it's really figuring out I mean, the thing is just like just like Product Marketing, it's figuring out who your audiences and then going where they you know where they are and where they go. Um, and that's gonna that's very dependent. Okay, so what are the biggest mistakes? Especially with, you know, the hundred plus professionals you've worked with? What are the biggest mistakes you see candidates making when they're looking for a new role, specifically, if it's in remote,
I think it's the difference between sharing versus not sharing. So I think personal branding is more than just about what we put out to the world, but also what we're withholding. I mean, if we go back to product branding, Nike doesn't publicize its factory conditions, if you will. So in other words, personal branding is more than just what we're putting out there. But what we're keeping private, especially so on social media, and noting that digital footprint and as we begin to share more and more online, we have to be cautious of that digital exhaust, if you will, which is kind of the smog or the footprints that they're leaving behind that. Remember not want potential employers to be seeing if you will. And when we consider the fact that our online identities just kind of always working for us 24 seven, just to be cautious of what that means in the negative sense. And there's another misconception that people are screening candidates to find reasons not to hire them, which is not the case they're they're googling or they're they're searching you on a social media site to find reasons to confirm their gut reactions, which is why I'm Why are you in the first place? So with that said, you don't have to go on complete lockdown and lock everything up. You still want to have that persona online, but just kind of being a bit mindful and pausing for half a second of How can this be taken out of context?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's really smart. I remember when I was looking over the course one of the courses you sell on personal branding site, you had a list of sites I've never been heard of that can go back and flag Potentially, you know, anything that could be even slightly controversial on social media, or just like stuff you've written a long time ago, like, I probably have tweets from 10 years ago that I would look at now. And I mean, I have writing on my personal blog from 10 years ago where I'm just like, nothing offensive. I'm just like, You're an idiot, like you thought you knew so much, and you knew nothing. So I think that's incredibly important. When you're job seeking. And you know, some people, some people thrive on the controversial stuff, and that's great, but other people don't. And I think most of the time when you're looking for a new role, I'm being a little more vanilla when it comes to teen or social footprint is is probably better. Um, yeah, what were like what was an example of one of those sites?
So there's a couple there's one called tweet deleter. There's another called yourself online. Essentially what these sites do is You log in through your existing social profiles. And they'll use quite literally AI or AR filters to pick out tweets, perhaps, that are flagged to be controversial, whether they're using swear words or whether there's some images in your Instagram posts that may be too revealing, if you will, it will just kind of flag you. That's not to say you have to delete them, but rather to give you the opportunity for you to make that decision and bring some awareness to what is out there.
Yep, absolutely. So last few questions. This has been super helpful. My oh my gosh, I'm the worst. I'm literally looking at your name. And I said that. Um, so what is the product or tool that you use to do your most your best work? Like what is something that you rely on heavily?
Yeah, so I'm a minimalist, so I like to use as few tools as possible. There's a few that come to my mind right now. The first is simple note that mean, it's just a notetaking app that's cloud based. So you could write a note on your phone that's gonna be under computer waiting for you when you get home. But there's no text markup, or there's no kind of bowl, it's just thoughts. It's just writing. And that's been incredibly helpful. Just kind of release a free stream of thoughts, another as pocket. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. But essentially, it's a read for later list. So if you're on Twitter, or if you're reading an article, and you don't want to keep it open in your tab, you want to get back to it later. You add it to your pocket through a Chrome extension. And it allows you to kind of pick up where you left off on your phone, or on your iPad, whatever it may be. And it's really a read for later list for bookmarking. But it's super minimalistic and well done and easy to navigate. So those two, I think what I'm getting at is there's tools to allow me to kind of work freely where if a month ago, I could kind of pick up where I've left off and so on and so forth.
So kind of that seamless nature of Never really being offline, which doesn't sound super healthy, but has been you know, I mean, the thing is like I so I tried to get into pocket I think the only thing like the caveat is you have to like with anything like with the job search, you have to create a process, you have to stick to it. And it's kind of that, you know, the David Allen's getting things done were like, you know, you can always keep track of stuff. If you always continue to follow up on it. It reminds me to get back into that back into that habit. I've probably read getting things done like four or five times over the last decade, and every few years. I'm like, I need a refresher. Series seriously. So what's your favorite podcaster book for the last year and doesn't have to do anything about business or branding? I just love this question because I'm a big podcast and book nerd and I'll usually take people suggestions.
I'll go in the book front, and I don't think it even came out within the last year but I only discovered it within the last year. It's called This is marketing by Seth Godin. And It really is the one on one marketing book for is the savvy people or not business savvy people. And it's not selling in like seven basic by any means, but it's a way in which, or it's a book that has opened my eyes to the ways in which things are sold or people are persuasive that is just so incredibly refreshing and novel, that I recommend it really to anyone, whether they're in the business field or not, just because everyone's trying to market themselves. And there's, there's so many kind of intricacies to it that I think once you kind of know the inside baseball strategies, you just see the world differently, and it's incredibly refreshing. It's called This is marketing by Seth Godin.
I'm literally gonna download that on Audible and listen to it while I drive him this afternoon. So, and that's a great park or Park point. I can't talk today at all. So that's a great point in terms of that. I think going forward in the next like 10 to 20 years, even even to future future proof your career, we can't we almost have to treat our professional selves like a product. We can't say, Oh, well, I'm not in marketing. So I don't need to know this. Um, yeah, it's just it's it's, it, there's a lot of opportunity, but at the same time, a lot is going to change. And people are, if they don't keep up with it, they will get left behind.
100%. And the last thing I'll add to that is, I think one of the biggest push backs that I face, at least within the personal branding space, is the comment. Well, I'm not a product, I don't want to treat myself like a product. I'm a person, why can I just be a person? And I, what I'd say to that is, I believe personal branding is perhaps the most humanizing thing that we can do. And what we're doing with personal branding is recognizing our own strengths, our own unique characteristics and our distinctions and doubling down on them. And it's incredibly empowering when we realize there's no one else like us, so we might as well lead with that. And and use that to unlock doors and to grow our own careers. I think there's nothing more humanistic than looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, like, I've got this this is me no one else can be me. Let me own this.
And it's it is it's refreshing, it's empowering as well. You actually I think especially in the end of time like we're going through today where there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of stress. I think it is empowering to say hey, like out of 6 billion people this is what I'm really good at. This is what I can give to the world this is how I can help Matt this has been so awesome. Can you let me know how people can find out more about you and find out about PRSNL and you know, the the services you offer online?
Sure thing so you could find my personal site as Klein Klein Klein calm as you had mentioned k l n, three times calm. I'm also at client client client everywhere on social whether that be LinkedIn or Twitter and to find more about PRSNL Branding. That's PRSNLbranding.com
I love it. Thank you so much. Have a great one.
Thank you so much.
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